TWICE Commerce 2.0: From Software to Operating System

Karri: Hello, and welcome to the Recommerce podcast, the podcast where we talk all things re-commerce and circular businesses. Today, we are diving deep into Twice Commerce 2.0, which is a completely revamped, built from the ground version of TWICE Commerce. And to talk about it, I'm joined by Tuomo Laine, the CEO and co-founder of TWICE Commerce. Welcome.

Tuomo: Thank you, Karri. Happy to be here.

Karri: But let's jump straight into it. So building it new from the ground up sounds quite risky. Why are you doing it?

Tuomo: Yeah, a great question. I think it's the decision we came to after looking at the state of the market and reflecting what we had built previously. So when we looked at the market, we could see a lot of these, say, application layer solutions, often vertical application layer solutions, that had quite a lot of opinions on how that vertical should run their business. And this vertical could mean rentals, or it could mean resales, or buyback. But all of these applications had a lot of opinions on how you should be running your things.

And that's kind of true also with our old product, that it had certain key areas where it had a lot of opinions on how should you connect your inventory to catalog. And adding more features on top of that product would have meant that we kind of double down on those opinions. Now, having reflected a bit on the market, we realized that maybe as we're looking at things like agentic applications and AI applications, growing and growing, maybe the future of re-commerce and commerce in general isn't so much on opinionated application layer.

Instead, what the merchants and our clients might need most help with is actually having a less opinionated, like an operating system layer where data is made accessible for AI applications. And that kind of meant that we had to build the product in a new way, that even though we have made it extremely simple for anyone to run a rental business, or to do resales, the core concepts and the ways how things are built are less opinionated on how you should run your business. It enables you to do things. It enables you to fetch data from TWICE to other systems or to use agentic workflows a lot easier, since the platform itself doesn't have that many opinions. So this is kind of our thinking behind it. I hope it makes sense to you. What do you think?

Karri: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I got grasp of it. And I think the key concept that you mentioned there is that kind of moving from this application software layer into the operating system. And happy to hear more about what does it concretely mean? Like what does it mean when you're saying that TWICE Commerce 2.0 is a operating system rather than a software?

Tuomo: Yeah, definitely. I think maybe going to that theme via an analogy that if you would want to build a skyscraper, you wouldn't do it by just adding floors on top of a wooden cottage. That would kind of break down at some point. So you need to have very rigid-- not necessarily rigid, but sturdy foundations and well thought foundations if you want to build something very usable and big. And I think operating systems are such that there will be a lot of skyscrapers and so on built on top of those. Maybe someone uses the operating system to just build a smaller cottage. But you kind of have to put a lot of effort into thinking, how do you do the core foundations if you want to build an operating system on top of which various different kinds of operating models are configured on top of or that support small scale rentals, large scale resales, and so on.

So what that meant for us was looking at some of the core assumptions of circularity and re-commerce and turning those assumptions or kind of models into very easy to use capabilities on an OS level rather than looking at, for example, a user job in rentals and then just making a digital version out of it. So a practical example of that might be that a core assumption of circular commerce, whether it's buying back goods or renting goods or selling second hand, is that each one of your items that you have in your stock is unique in its nature. That uniqueness comes from things like, of course, it can be unique in the sense that all of your items are different if they're kind of collectibles or it can be unique in condition, its usage hours, how many times it's been booked.

There's so many ways on how to be unique that if you want to have an inventory management solution that supports that, you first have to enable this uniqueness on a tracking level. So every item needs to be able to be tracked on an individual level. But also this uniqueness is quite unstructured. What is unique to my business might not be the same as how someone else models it. So you need very dynamic ways of attributing or describing items. It cannot really come from the OS itself forcing you to say that this is the taxonomy in which you have to describe things. You need to be able to be very flexible in saying what kind of stuff you track and store per item.

And this uniqueness is something that we've spent a lot of time in, allowing you to have completely dynamic attributes, for example, for every asset that you have. Just basically meaning that you can store whatever data you want per asset, even doing things like calculated attributes where that the value of the attributes, so like, for example, residual value for a used item, is calculated based on other attributes, like usage hours or purchase price. So this kind of flexibility has been built into TWICE. And it depends on you how you want to use those. So again, if you're a rental store, you might use them for usage hour tracking or residual value tracking. If you're a resale operator, you might want to utilize them for storing recommended resale prices based on condition and other things. Key thing here being that it's very dynamic, even though it's unstructured in a way that you can store whatever you want, it's still structured in a way that you can, in other parts of your system, refer to those fields very easily. I hope that makes sense.

Karri: Yeah, absolutely. I think it makes total sense. And I bet a lot of listeners, and at least I have seen on some specific vertical solutions or software that there is these like predefined fields. And then you have to hack around it if you want to use it other way around. But by basically creating everything dynamic and flexible, it's up to you how you structure your whole inventory and your whole data model. It's maybe adapting more to your business rather than your business having to adapt to how the software is designed.

Tuomo: Definitely. And there's a couple of very interesting, like if you're into product development, I think interesting UX design paradigms, for example, to solve. So I'm gonna use an example from Notion if someone's used Notion as a document or note-taking tool or it's nowadays even this kind of unstructured database. And the key thing there, in my opinion, is that as you allow very dynamic data storage, so you're not setting those rules that, okay, this is the place where you have to store, I don't know, the purchase price. And this is the place where, so as you allow a lot of freedom, there's a lot of like unstructuredness that kind of comes with it. So meaning that the users can really store whatever they want, like in an Excel.

But if you design that OS layer well, you're still with via user experience, helping the user to store that kind of somewhat unstructured or less predefined data in the right place. Via that user experience, the user still kind of goes to the right place to say that or write the value, the resale value is this or the condition is this. So really a lot of the heavy lifting that a OS like, like TWICE Commerce tries to solve is that we allow freedom to store whatever you want and to build relations between things, but we help you via the product design to be in the right place in the right time to do that job.

Because at the end of the day, one could argue that X, something like a spreadsheet, allows you the total freedom to do whatever you want. But then the value really comes also from the fact that how do you help the user to build relationships or dynamic calculations based on different fields and how do you help the user to make sense what belongs where. And that's really where a lot of magic happens on that, like UX layer where you make it intuitive to navigate to the right place, store that dynamic data. And then in a not completely another place in another job, for example, creating a listing that you want to publish to a third party marketplace, bringing all of that, for example, very dynamic and free from inventory data to be usable when defining what do you need from your inventory without it overwhelming you.

So these are kind of things that you probably experienced the best by actually testing out the product or joining our wait list and getting pre access to the product and kind of seeing it for yourself. But this kind of work and is, I think, at the core at building a very flexible operating system in our case, a commerce operating system.

Karri: Sounds good. So I guess there is good time to say that there is indeed the wait list available at twicecommerce.com. If you are interested in joining and getting access, early access, you can sign up there and we'll let you in at some point to test it out. And of course, it's going to roll out at some point in the near future for everybody. Maybe continuing on the OS logic and bringing this dynamic flexible kind of like that you are able to define the DNA of your business inside TWICE rather than us forcing it. And I think it's pretty clear that it's especially in the inventory, it's kind of like that you are able to put whatever attributes you want there and even use other attributes inside formulas and kind of model your digital twin of your physical assets the way you want. Does the same flexibility and this dynamism also-- is it also relevant in other places? So for example, bookings or reservations or something like that, is that also some place where you have more freedom to actually model how your business operates?

Tuomo: So I think you're touching upon two things there. So there's the question of temporality. People tend to think that it's only relevant to rentals, but it's actually something that happens also to buy back and resell products because you are operating in a world where your business is very tied to the back flow of goods in terms of what's coming in and what's going out. And everything's unique. Tracking timelines and figuring out where assets are and in what condition and when. And being able to kind of take a look to the future in the past is really at the core of understanding not only what's available to, for example, to be booked, but also to understand how long does it take on average for us to buy back a good until it's inspected, refurbished, and available as a listing in various different sales fronts and how long does it take for that asset to be then sold and what was the cost and income. So there's a lot more temporality that connected to many of the circular commerce cases. So that kind of capabilities comes into play and that all right things also need to adjust to the fact that it's not only data being dynamic, but it's data and values living over time.

So they're temporal, they change, you get new data and then you need to infer things out of that. So whether it's in bookings, it's often inferring like, all right, when is the thing available? But it might be more analytical things like, what's the average cost of inspection and refurbishment process for this category of products. Or an example might be logging every hour a GPS location for a rental car, like where is it going and so on? Because you wanna be able to go back to a record that shows that.

From our perspective as a e-commerce operating system, there's 100 billion different use cases how someone might want to use those capabilities from that GPS tracking to that availability protection to storing those condition details or inspection details and costs. The only thing that we as a platform kind of can assume is that the user probably stores this information for a reason and if they make it so that this information is temporal, so it's kind of either a kind of a date range or a booking in time or it's a note with a timestamp, that also probably is for a reason.

Now, it's our job to make sure that if you stored that data, it's probably important. So you wanna come back to it later in that same temporal context. So you might want to view that data in a timeline or you might want to fetch it via API to be used in another system and you kind of just use TWICE as the life cycle record for each one of your items. But again, we don't too much assume a specific use case. We just try to kind of think that, all right, we've made it possible for you to store all of this data with this kind of temporal timeline tracking and then make it easy for you to then look, edit, edit it or analyze it or then use it in another system where you have a workflow that we're not aware of.

So I hope this kind of again highlights the fact that we've acknowledged and have understood that in re-commerce a key capability for anyone, again, whether you do resales or rentals, it doesn't that much matter is that you need the ability to be able to store things with a timestamp or a time range that something takes X amount of time. And after that, when you have the capability, you can use it for many things. There's no limit to the use cases that you can then support there as this timeline then lives with each one of those unique assets that we touched upon earlier. So again, what we've only enabled, which is very, very hard to do is that you can store unique data for every item if you choose to do so. And this data can evolve and be kind of in the context of time and then you're at the kind of core at understanding your inventory and product flows in a temporal life cycle. And that's the whole kind of one core concept of re-commerce. Again, I hope that makes sense. It's a bit of a theoretical answer, but this is again, I think just underlying the fact that if you take that OS approach, you are trying to find the common nominator between a lot of use cases, making that those possible, but not dictating how you need to do those use cases.

Karri: Absolutely. And I think that highlights like a great example of what might be like, let's say like a rental software. It might have like feature called like GPS tracking and it has like predefined section where you put that. So that's something you're not gonna find in the new TWICE, but then we have the possibility to send events through the admin panel and API and so on. And you can just say like, hey, this is a GPS coordinate for this item at this point. And that same logic can be actually used for anything. So I guess that's a pretty good distinction between like what is the operating system approach versus that this is like a car rental software that might have this feature, might have some integration with some player, but in operating system, we have the capability to store information in temporal way. And it's up to you like where do you send it? Do you send it through API or are you sending it? Putting it manually and up to you and again, evolving and adapting to your business rather than saying that this is how you should run your business.

Tuomo: Yes, it's like there's operating systems that also take opinions in like the graphical user interface, but there's operating systems like looking at something like core Linux, like there's many versions of it, but it's like, I think the key things that we've solved is that we've on a very, let's say non-graphical level, like I call it the API or the kind of actual engine level defined and enable many of these capabilities. But of course we've seen a lot of effort when it comes to making this engine accessible for even very casual merchants or less kind of deep dive merchants by doing a lot of heavy lifting when it comes to UX design and UI design, trying to make all of these concepts very accessible, kind of referring to what I was telling earlier that the job there is to kind of make sure that we consciously make it easy for users to access that quite dynamic and temporal data in a relevant context.

Also, I'd like to kind of throw in this question that like one might ask like, why now? Why is it now a good time or an important time to kind of look at this thing at even at like, let's say commerce OS level? Why wasn't it done maybe two, three years ago or kind of answering that question? So a short answer to that might be that as we're looking what's changing in the world, there's a lot of capabilities that AI is bringing to the table, whether it's workflow automation, so you can kind of pipe many AI agents or many service providers together with providers like Make or whatever is your tool of choice.

Then the question really is that like, well, how do these agents access things? One could even argue that we aren't necessarily that far from being able to even spin out like custom UIs for whatever use case you need. So if you played around with, I don't know, Lovable, you can pretty much prompt a dashboard app in seconds. And then the question just is what data does that dashboard app use? But if you have a data source that is AI friendly in that way that you could provide it easily for that Lovable flow, you can just build a custom reporting dashboard for a task that you are gonna do for 10 minutes, which kind of again highlights the fact that the world is going to a place where there's a lot of value in being able to empower very specialized AI agents with the right data.

And I think in commerce, it makes even more sense because if you look back, it's a market where you have, I don't know, a website provider or something like Shopify. And then you have, I don't know, the hundreds of thousands of applications that you can install there or add-ons, whatever that platform is calling them. And it just tells about the nature of commerce that there's a lot of micro jobs to do to be done, whether it's tax reporting, currency rates or whatever. And by definition, there's so many jobs to be solved that no platform, single platform can solve all of those. It wouldn't even make sense because those small jobs can be very hard to solve.

So then the question is that if that's the nature of commerce, why would you use a application that is very restrictive and telling you how to do things because you anyhow have those millions of jobs that you need to be able to connect to this thing? So this is again the place where we feel that by empowering a market like re-commerce with a OS layer, this kind of infrastructure layer that is capable of modeling their actual reality in a nice way and then having good connectivity to allow them to extend it with these fit for purpose AI workflows or apps and so on, that that's really the job to be done here because otherwise you just, you know, restrict the merchants too much. Again, I hope that makes sense. I went a little bit theoretical there, but that's, I think this is a perfect timing to be building building something like this and also to be starting to use something like this because the AI disruption and combined with the re-commerce adaptation flows is a really like a key thing happening in the market in my opinion.

Karri: Yeah, absolutely. I think you nailed it really well actually. And that's something that I have also noticed when I'm creating a content. And if I'm using some kind of like, let's say specialized or maybe even closed system, even though it's like AI native, if I store the original data there, like the source of through data there, it's actually quite limiting even if that software works great now, but whenever there is like a new age and new workflow, new something that I wanna use, let's say like a raw material transcripts or anything like that. For example, from this podcast, and if it's living inside that, it's actually like limiting me when rest of the world is moving forward.

So I ended up actually using like Notion which you already mentioned, like that's my source of truth. And that's where I wanna store all of that like raw data and it's super easy to today use it here and tomorrow maybe on the other platform or other software or connected via Notion's MCP to almost any service like super easy. And I think that's definitely something that even though it might be like a, let's say like a new commerce software might be like the best there is now and it has like all the features, world is moving so fast. So maybe in a couple of weeks or a couple of months, it's not anymore. Then it's all about like how accessible is the source of through data, how easy it is to spin it out then and utilize that data in these different touch points or software or workplaces.

Tuomo: That's actually that kind of reminded me of one thing also like to double down on this like almost like philosophical level is that. So if that is true, then the question kind of is that, well, there's probably many OS providers and if things are changing every two weeks, how do I know like what's a sign of a good OS provider? And then of course I can just answer our opinions on it. Now, why isn't there a general OS for everything? Why is there an OS for like PostHog is calling themselves the product OS and Stripe is the pay, at least used to be the payment OS and we're saying where the re-commerce are e-commerce OS. So why do all of these things need their own OS? I think there's always this kind of idea that all right, we have the data there, but then this OS is somehow like taking these opinions like I mentioned in temporality and every item is serialized.

There's even, there's other opinions that we might have and in commerce at least I have, and I feel everyone in our company has this kind of core assumption that whatever you've now modeled into the OS as the source of truth data, it's always outdated. Even though it's kind of looking to the future and the past, there's always errors to it because inherently you can never be completely correct. In some categories, you have like IOT connections that can make it very fast in correcting data, but let's take an example of you renting, for example a bicycle. Now you have now mapped the situation, everything's fine, you have all the whole fleet is in use and then a customer comes back and says, "The bike is broken." Now if you look into the data, the data says it's not broken and you have to be able to correct it and say, "Okay, let me go in and mark this now to maintenance for two weeks or whatever would be your arrangement."

Again, case by case, you cannot have a preset thing that, "Okay, if something comes back, it's always two days or four days." It always probably depends a bit on how broken it is, what kind of deals do you have, can you repair it yourself? But the key thing here is that, the data is always a bit wrong. If you have, like in our case, we have multi-location support and even automated inventory transfers between the locations in the new platform. Now, you might model that this item moves there in three days and you might use a career service there in between, but hey, stuff happens, maybe that career service just lost that parcel. And all of a sudden, you need that your data is not correct anymore. The item never arrived there, it's late and you need to be able to adjust.

So then the question is that in commerce, then your inventory is always a bit wrong. Maybe if something got stolen, something is later than you thought, something's faster than you thought. So a good commerce OS makes it very easy for you to be able to kind of correct the source of truth without it being too rigid. But everything needs to leave a mark and so on. And then this correction can happen manually by your employees, it can happen manually by yourself. It can happen via APIs. If it's like an IoT product, for example, an e-scooter with GPS tracking, it can kind of on the fly constantly tell where it is or does it have a problem.

But this is kind of another core assumption, I think. Part of commerce is that a good commerce OS tool always does its best to model, especially in re-commerce, what's the source of truth in the history now and in the future. But it kind of also acknowledges the reality that it probably isn't correct. So it is constantly being adjusted by editing data, adding data or in some cases archiving data. And this is really a key thing that you need to take into account also.

Karri: Yeah, that makes sense. So even though we kind of discussed that operating system is not like opinionated and allows you to do almost anything, it's still in that context and kind of understanding that by nature, commerce is like this. And re-commerce, there is also the temporality so that the same item kind of moves around. There is multiple stages and different reservations, unavailabilities and so on. So there is like this opinion or maybe even some fundamentals, but how your operations, how you build on top of it, that's where the freedom is.

Tuomo: Yeah, maybe we have to be precise in saying that, yeah, of course we have opinions on what kind of a thing called commerce or re-commerce is. Like we've now said that it's very temporal, it's very unique, it's very messy, it's very connection driven. So there's no one doing all of the jobs, there's 100 add-ons doing 50 jobs because you always have add-ons that you don't actually use. And then you have a lot of these messy things happening. But where we say that we shouldn't take opinions is that what's the correct time for maintenance or like assuming that you wanna do something. The freedom is in like you said, on the operational definition. So it is kind of how you do things isn't dictated. It's maybe what is dictated is that, well, we assume that since you started using a commerce OS, you probably agree with us that commerce is a thing like this. And that's probably where there's competition in the market. If there's two commerce OSs, that's their difference. If you compare us to Shopify as like a commerce OS against commerce OS, there are differences. That's then probably to the fact that we've been looking into re-commerce and circular commerce quite a lot. Whereas Shopify has been looking into linear commerce and this kind of only like big back ship operation with occasional returns. And that's where some of the opinion and assumption differences might come from.

Karri: Maybe just to clarify there where you brought it up, Shopify like if there is a couple key differences, how is TWICE different from Shopify? What would they be like you mentioned, linear and circular?

Tuomo: I think the key things are, we are a lot more robust when it comes to inventory management due to the fact that inventory management is so big thing in re-commerce. I have to simplify many things just to make a point. But for example, if we look into inventory and catalog management, Shopify can make an assumption that all right, you have a product that you wanna sell. They mainly do sales. So you have a product you wanna sell for that product. We can create a product page for your website. And then you can just tell me what's the skew of this thing and then how many of those do you have across your warehouses? So there's like one to one to one relationship of like, okay, almost like one product page. How many of you have the skews? And then you might have, okay, how many of these you might have in multiple warehouses?

Now in TWICE, since it's re-commerce, even though I have one skew, so let's say one, I have a skew of, so stock keeping unit of, I don't know, iPhone 13, all of my 50 iPhone 13s are a little bit different in terms of from who might have I bought it, what's the condition, whether I have refurbished them, how much I've spent in refurbishment. So it's not anymore a simple relationship where we would like to have 50 skews for all of the, but still one product page. So there's already there, there's differences.

The other one is that, and that's one of the reasons why we've done this separation is that since inventory management, the inventory flows are so important operational capabilities, we have made it very relaxed and a dynamic when it comes to what you actually have on an operation level. So modeling your inventory where you can model things in a serialized way and still group them by skew if you want. And all of the things that we touched upon earlier, making sure that you have maintenance tracking and availability tracking in place. But that doesn't mean that all of that complexity that you want in your inventory management and granularity that you wanna reflect that to the end user, you still wanna provide the end user with very easy, simple or an understandable booking experiences or purchase experiences.

So instead of having just a skew, like a quite naive skew relationship in saying, what is this digital product page pointing to, we have more dynamic relationships where you can say that, we don't even call it a product page, we call it a listing because that's probably more descriptive of what is it, what does this sales listing or booking listing need from your inventory if someone purchases it. And with bookings, of course, it's the question of, what if someone books this listing for, from Friday to Sunday, what do I need and are those available? That relationship is not only done by skews, you can just say that I need anything with the brand of X and condition of something and more than 1000 hours of usage, which makes it very flexible for you to productize things.

And finally, I wanna say that we kind of assume that you can create even five listings that are all pointing at the end of the day to the same inventory item, you're just productizing it in different ways. And you might want to publish those listings, not only in your own online store, but in your partner websites or aggregation websites. So I think these are, maybe this is the one key difference or a few key differences when it comes to Shopify and us, we're a lot more heavy in helping you to model and track your inventory. And we're more relaxed in how like allowing you to create multiple sales listings and booking listings that monetize that inventory so that your complex inventory tracking doesn't become at the come at the cost of user experience. But we do a little bit, a lot less actually, a lot less heavy lifting when it comes to providing online store themes and so on. And where Shopify is huge and so on. And I wanna also say that we do have customers that use Shopify storefronts and just kind of elect to use our inventory tracking and that listing capabilities to be able to still reflect these things in their Shopify stores. So maybe those as few examples.

Karri: In a nutshell, there is like the serialized inventory versus this SKU based inventory. And then the temporality and what it does. And you also mentioned this kind of like flexible connection between inventory and the listings. So maybe it's good also kind of summarize like what are actually the assets or the core things that actually come with TWICE Commerce and how do they play together?

Tuomo: Yeah, so anyone starting to use TWICE, they get your inventory management. In your inventory, the core asset that we will be looking at is a stock item. So, and then for each stock item, you describe it via these attributes. All right, that's kind of how you're building it. Now, if you have a stock item like, I don't know, screws, if you're kind of selling power tools and you sell the screws with it, of course, not every screw has to be unique. So you can still pool things with quantity. But the key thing is that the core asset that you have is a stock item that you describe via these attributes.

Another key asset that you have under your catalog is then listings. And listings is essentially what your end customers are engaging with. It's the catalog. So listings are things like sales listings or booking listings. So the key thing about our listings is that you build the same stuff, you give it a title, descriptions, some media and images, some extra information like technical details that might come from the inventory. And then you tell where is this listing published. But then essentially what you also tell is that what do I need from my inventory? So what stock items do I need to fulfill this listing? And that relationship can be very dynamic. So it's all of those attributes that you've defined in your inventory are now available as a language, kind of rule language to tell what you need from your inventory and how much and how many of these things when someone engages with this listing.

And then I think the third asset is customers. So we automate, you get an automated like CRM tracking, which again also has attributes like listings and inventory where it's essentially all of those customers that they engage with you. You have a CRM, you have the attributes that can describe them like if you wanna store date of birds, names and all of that. And then when all of these things come into play, we do offer you also order fulfillment. So someone goes to that out of the box online store that you get with us, engages with your listings, does a checkout using the out of the box payment processing that we provide with you in your TWICE admin, you get a order. And that order is kind of a combination of all of those assets that I listed. You see who's the customer, you see what listings did they engage with. We have automatically suggested and auto-assigned some of the stock items. We made sure that those things were available even though it would be a booking to the future. And then you're able to do simple order fulfillment and all of these aggregates data to all of these key assets used in this listing. You can see how many times it's been purchased, by who. If you're looking at the customer, you can see what listings they have purchased, what stock items they ended up with so that you actually know on an actual stock item level what they've purchased or used and or booked in the history. And then in the stock item, you've accumulated events and usage, expenses and income for that stock item. So you're always in track of what stock items you had available and how profitable your inventory has been over time. So three core assets that come into play via order creation and storefronts that all are automatically tracked.

Karri: So it sounds like TWICE Commerce comes with everything that you need if you wanna utilize TWICE Commerce to run your business. That's possible. So you get the online store, inventory, catalog, CRM and then order management and online payments and all of this. So you are able to run everything on Twice.

Tuomo: Yes, the only thing that, or probably more about like one key thing that we don't provide you with is a business entity. So if you wanna do all of these under a business entity, that's something that you need to have in your local market. So you cannot create and found a business via TWICE. But once you have that, you can kind of get everything up and running.

Karri: Absolutely, absolutely. And where I'm going with this idea is that you have everything, but you don't have to use everything. And I think at the core of the OS approach is also the API-first mentality and the possibility to utilize TWICE also as part of your composable stack or headless inventory or so on and kind of pick what you want or have everything and do these integrations and maybe MCP connections and all of this. So that's also part of the OS approach.

Tuomo: Yeah, it's like if we've done our job well and what we aspire to do is that instead of, you're experienced with TWICE when you start, you don't be like, okay, us telling you next do this, then do this, then do that. And in order to do that, do that, do that, do that. But rather we start the conversation with the user by asking what do you wanna do? It's like dungeon and dragons. We kind of ask you, what do you wanna do? And it's your, like if you have a use case in your mind, you can probably usually ask like, I wanna do this. And then it's our job to help you then tell you that, okay, this is how you can get it done. But we're not saying that there's a list of things that you can do, pick the next one you wanna do. So it's really kind of, if you have a business case, you usually have already a problem that you wanna solve. I wanna upload my inventory, all right, you do it here. I wanna record a maintenance for this bike, all right? This is where you do it. I wanna publish a sales listing for my used bike, all right? Go here, create a listing at this price and make sure that you point to this stock item or if it's a generic resale listing for your bikes, just define that the bikes that you wanna sell need to have more than 1,000 hours of usage. Again, we're not telling you that this is the steps to go about it and this is how you should run your business. We are trying to engage in a conversation that always starts by what's your problem and how can we help today? And that's really kind of the OS approach. And we of course hope that we've been able to do so good of a job that when you tell what you wanna do, we shouldn't have to say that, oh, you can't do that because that's against what we think you should do things. The only thing that we might be able to want to say is that, hmm, that's interesting, a very complex thing that you wanna do, this is how you pull it off. May we suggest an easier setup like we can remove these steps if you do that, but again, if you wanna do it in way, how you describe, go ahead. It's, you can do very complex things on OS also.

Karri: I guess the sky is the limit when everything is accessible by API. So even if you have super complex thing, it might be that, hey, you might not end up actually doing it like inside TWICE, but maybe you white code a smartphone app that you're actually using in store and that's where you actually feed the data to let's say this stock item that you scan with your phone and then you just take photo of it or something like that so you can create interfaces or anything like that or have it be part of your other more white composable commerce stack.

Tuomo: Exactly, that's, and I think that's the root of everything that it's true to all commerce, but it's even more true to re-commerce that every operational flow is so contextual to where you are, who you are, who you're working with, what's your product, what's your know-how, what's the level of service you wanna provide that it's very hard for you to find a solution from the market that would fit that exactly if it's very opinionated vertical application, but with an OS you can kind of define your own flow and evolve it as you grow and work forward. And there will be a lot of jobs that you do not want to do in that commerce OS, but you'd rather white code your own special tool for it or use another provider. And the key thing that you're looking for there is this connectivity piece that it's easy for you to transfer knowledge between different systems.

Karri: Absolutely, sounds good. Do you have any closing words about TWICE Commerce 2.0? So maybe something that if somebody's listening, maybe in like couple sentences, like what is it and why they should come and do a free trial if they are interested in what it can do.

Tuomo: I loved when you said, if someone's listening. Is that the confidence rate of our podcast?

Karri: Maybe referring to if somebody is listening who is interested in this. All right, yeah, sure.

Tuomo: Yeah, so as you're listening to us as a person who's trying to figure out how to go about this or it's the note, I think the reason to join the wait list or get early access to the new platform or then if we're already out at that time when you're listening to this podcast, the reason you probably wanna join is that at the end of the day, your business is about making business with unique items. So you're booking them, you're buying stuff from other users, improving them and selling them out. And you want a very flexible commerce OS. You want to be flexible in productization. You wanna be flexible in inventory management and you wanna be kind of hacking away and trying to find the optional solution. And when you find it and you wanna start automating it, you wanna have a robust powerful system that can power the largest retailers in the world. That for example, view that we have and you want that confidence that as a OS, this will not cap out. And I think then you wanna try it TWICE. And I'm sure there will be many use cases where we lack some end points or whatever and we cannot yet do it. But if you just let us know in this new platform, it's relatively easy for us to add those end points or capabilities and to serve you better as an OS. And then the core promise that I'm making is that we're building that OS for you. So we're not forcing you to build your business in a certain way and we are always starting the discussion with how can we help you today? What do you want to do today? And trying to help you do it rather than telling that, here's the way how you should run your business next year.

Karri: Sounds really good. And I think even for new entrepreneurs or someone starting out, it's maybe a good tip that even if you don't need all of this capability and flexibility now, at some point, you probably are gonna run into a wall with some limited vertical software. And that's the moment when you, like we have a lot of customers coming from other software, more vertical type limited software are coming to us. So if you start with us, there is a lot of capabilities, but you are able to get up and running quite easily. But when you grow and when you wanna start automatings and so on, that's when you probably get the most out of TWICE and kind of feel good that you are able to grow with TWICE as you are growing. And even I think our largest customers have like over 50 stores now running on top of TWICE. So it's kind of-

Tuomo: Yeah, I think it should be. I think that more than 50 and they're not small stores, they're like big box stores with 10, sorry, 100 plus employees actively working there and using the software daily. So you can get to quite complex setups with thousands of people using TWICE as part of their recommerce operation on a daily basis. So if you're just starting out, at least to that point, we can help you scale. But I don't know if you have, you become the next IKEA and you're one of the global OS, then I don't know whether we're yet there. Hopefully by the time that you've grown there, we would be-

Karri: Sounds good, sounds good. And as a reminder, if you're interested in early access to TWICE Commerce 2.0, you can find the waitlist at twicecommerce.com. But hey, Tuomo, thank you a lot for your insights and sharing what's new with twicecommerce.com. And I think whoever is listening and it's interested, it's best to just come check it out and see what's possible. But thank you, Tuomo.

Tuomo: Thank you for all the people if you were listening.